Interview with Noam Chamsky
Interview with Noam Chamsky
by Mashhood Rizvi
When I wrote a tribute to Professor Noam Chomsky, for the first issue of EDucate!, I did not expect to meet the "indefatigable rebel" in person. But I was soon honored when he recently visited Pakistan on a whirlwind trip. It would be unfair not to admit that the anticipation of being in the same space with him did not unnerve me. But, upon greeting him, my apprehension gave way to a desire for taking as much of my share of knowledge from him as possible. This interview comprises of a series of discussions we had in Pakistan and ensuing ones after he left.
MR: During your visit to Pakistan
many who approached you were hoping to hear ready-made solutions to
all the problems Pakistan is faced with. However, you seemed to be
pressing them to think hard and think critically about the problems
as well as the possible solutions. You held yourself responsible for
taking certain measures and actions regarding the role of your
country (US) and expected others to do the same. Is it true?
Chomsky: It is definitely true. It is perhaps the most elementary of moral truisms, that we are responsible for the anticipated consequences of our own action, or inaction. It may be fine to study the crimes of Genghis Khan, but there is no moral value to condemning them; we can't do anything about them. There is not much I can do - in fact, virtually nothing - about the very serious problems internal to Pakistan. I'd like to learn about them, and to understand them as best as I can. And I don't refrain from saying what I think.
MR: (a) Why is a moral value not attached to condemning the crimes of Genghis Khan? Don't you think that along with studying his crimes, it is equally important to continue to condemn them so that anybody who commits similar atrocities does not get away with it.
(b) Also, as far as the existing
imperial powers of the world are concerned, I think I am more than
justified to condemn them, as their crimes are directly causing my
people/country so much pain and suffering. The rise and rule of
corporations in the West in so many ways is linked to Pakistan's
economy vis-à-vis the poverty of our nation; therefore, I think that
it must be condemned by Pakistanis.
Chomsky: I am basing my
remarks on what seems to me a moral truism: the moral evaluation of
what we do depends on the anticipated consequences - in the cases we
are discussing, human consequences. If I publish a paper here
reviewing and condemning the crimes of Genghis Khan, the human
consequences are approximately zero; I'm joining in universal
condemnation, and adding another pea to the mountain certainly
doesn't help his victims, or anyone else for that matter.
Suppose in some part of the world, say Mongolia, his crimes were being suppressed or praised or even used as a model for current actions. Then it would be of great moral value to condemning his crimes there, because of the human consequences. Take your other example: condemnation in Pakistan of the impact of US corporate and state power in Pakistan. There is great moral value to condemn that in ways that affect the exercise of that power, which means mostly here, in the US. For Pakistanis, if the condemnations have no effect on the exercise of that power, then in that respect the moral value is slight; if they have an effect in raising the level of understanding of Pakistanis, to enable them to act more constructively, then the moral value could be great. In all cases, we are back to anticipated human consequences.
Let's take a concrete case. For
intellectuals in Russia in the Communist days, condemnation of US
crimes had little if any moral value; in fact, it might have had
negative value, in serving to buttress the oppressive and brutal
Soviet system. In contrast, when Eastern European dissidents
condemned the crimes of their own states and society, it had great
moral value. That much everyone takes for granted: everyone, that is,
outside the Soviet commissar class. Much the same holds in the West,
point by point, except with much more force, because the costs of
honest dissidence are so immeasurably less. And exactly as we would
expect, these utterly trivial points are almost incomprehensible to
Western intellectuals, when applied to them, though readily
understood when applied to official enemies.
That's why, for
example, I was critical of Pakistan's policies concerning Kashmir
when speaking in Pakistan, and of India's policies there when
speaking in India. But I cannot - and no one else should - have a
great deal of confidence in what I say as a concerned outsider. And
there isn't much that I can do about the very severe problems. In
contrast, there is a great deal I can do about problems within the
US, and about policy decisions of systems of power there. And for
just that reason, that's my primary responsibility.
Of course, it is not quite that simple.
Outsiders can sometimes have useful advice and influence, and should
try to use such opportunities. Nonetheless, the moral truism remains
just that: a truism.
Quite apart from moral truisms, it is
generally a mistake to expect outsiders to have valuable advice as to
how to deal with one's problems. That requires intimate knowledge and
understanding. It's sheer arrogance for those who lack that knowledge
and understanding to offer solutions. And it makes little sense to
wait for rescue from outside. That's often just a way to evade
responsibility.
Again, one shouldn't exaggerate. Sympathy and
support from friends is of enormous importance in personal life, and
solidarity and mutual aid are of comparable importance over a broader
sphere, including international affairs. Nonetheless, we ultimately
have to take our fate into our own hands, not wait for salvation from
somewhere else. It won't come.
MR: Are these the reasons that
your lectures in Pakistan (and to a great extent in India) were in
reference with the historical role of US in the world rather than
focusing on the issues and concerns of Pakistan vis-à-vis the war on
Afghanistan, or for that matter role of Islam in a Pakistani society?
Chomsky: These are exactly the reasons. Similarly, I would not expect a Pakistani visitor to the US to lecture us on US policy in Afghanistan, or on how to deal with quite severe problems internal to the US. If the visitor has something to say, well and good, but the strictures I already mentioned would hold nonetheless.
MR: Very briefly, can you
elucidate on the differences (audience's intellectual level,
academia, media's role etc.) you experienced between Pakistan and
India?
Chomsky: I'm reluctant to
comment on this. I spent 3 weeks in India, traveling widely around
the country. I have visited India several times in the past, and have
read quite a lot about India, including detailed studies of
particular regions and much else. In contrast, I spent 3 days in
Pakistan, and was able to see and experience very little. This was my
first trip, and I have not read about Pakistan anywhere near as
extensively. I have impressions, but am reluctant even to express
them, and do not think that you should take them seriously if I did.
MR: How difficult do you believe
it has now become to educate people about critical issues as anything
and everything which challenges the interest of the powerful is
tagged as 'terror'?
Chomsky: It has always been
difficult. Just speaking personally, I have been writing and speaking
extensively about "terrorism" for 20 years, ever since the
Reagan administration proclaimed that the "war against terror"
would be the core of its foreign policy; and of course about similar
matters even before the "war" was declared. Over time,
slowly, there has been increasing willingness on the part of much of
the public to think seriously about the critical issues that you
probably have in mind. I think that has improved further since Sept.
11. I am speaking about the general public, not elite intellectuals,
who typically serve as doctrinal managers, and have their own
agendas. Nothing novel about that.
MR: Do you think that at times
governments and nations strategically allow the existence of dissent
(maybe to trivialize truth), just to ensure some liberty of thought,
for the masses to feel good, and not agitated. Or do you think that
such space is a result of struggle?
Chomsky: The space that
exists was, mostly, won with difficult struggle. Nonetheless, it is
true that when such space is opened, there will be efforts on the
part of concentrated power to adapt it to their own purposes, and to
try to constrain debate and discussion within narrow limits. If
dictators were smarter, they would adopt the systems of
indoctrination that are employed, often quite consciously, in more
democratic societies: let debate rage, but within limits set by fixed
presuppositions, which express the basic interests of power. For
example, during the US wars in Indochina, the media and journals of
opinion were happy to sponsor debates between "hawks," who
argued that the US should resort to greater violence and destruction,
and "doves," who argued that our effort to defend the
Vietnamese from terror and foreign attack was becoming too costly,
and that we should seek other means to attain our noble objectives.
The more that debate rages, the less likely people are to ask the
obvious questions: for example, are we defending Vietnam by attacking
it? Fortunately, great numbers of people broke out of the hawk-dove
spectrum, though very few intellectuals. Much the same holds on many
other issues.
MR: Do you think that simply
informing the oppressed of the main sources of oppression can result
in liberation? Or, it may, on the contrary result in mere decreasing
or alleviating their feelings of being oppressed. All this, while the
magnitude of oppression and the oppressor becomes greater and
greater?
Chomsky: The oppressed
typically understand their oppression far better than we do, and we
should try to learn from them, not instruct them. Insofar as we have
some understanding of the sources of their oppression, we should do
our best to convey it to those who can use it to liberate themselves
- with our assistance, to whatever extent we can provide it, honestly
and without seeking dominance and control. It is perfectly true that
understanding may not result in liberation, but absence of
understanding is certain to prevent liberation. Those are the actual
choices.
MR: (a) I partially agree with
you. But, we are in so many ways distinctively privileged as compared
to the oppressed we claim to be fighting for. How important do you
think it is for us to be in the exact social, economical and
political state to join the struggle for social justice and a better
world? What I mean is that, when you came to Pakistan, the oppressed
had little or no access to you. You spoke English, which the
oppressed do not understand. I go for fieldtrips in an
air-conditioned car carrying mineral water bottles and have trouble
convincing myself in front of the mirror, that I am fighting for
social justice. Am I not required to let go of the material and
social privileges to become a real part of the struggle?
(b) I have met with so many extremely poor people who seem to think that it is their fate to be poor and oppressed. They have no clue whatsoever about the sources of their poverty. I work with illiterate people. Almost all of them suffer from serious self-deprivation to an extent that they consider themselves worse than animals at times. Then I come in the picture. I tell them that their poverty is not God's act on them, it is human creation. I tell them that being illiterate does not equate you with animals. I do not even instruct. I simply initiate a discourse. But I feel that so many of them, who seem to be feeling good, empowered and motivated by knowing that they have been regarded as real and dignified humans for the first time in their lives, immediately want solutions, answers, and explanations about what they can do and what I can do for them. I tell them that all I can do is to sit in that air conditioned car and go back home and they have to liberate themselves as my responsibility was to make them aware of the sources of their oppression. But Noam, honestly these people will be faced with such grave consequences if they were to liberate themselves from the social oppression they are faced with. Is this all I can do for them?
Chomsky: I don't see any
grounds for disagreement. You are, correctly, not pretending that you
can offer oppressed people magic answers to their problems. Their own
immediate situation they comprehend much better than you can, and
they have to struggle to overcome and remedy it, as people have done
through the ages. You do come to them to try to participate in their
struggle by contributing what you can, as you describe. That's
exactly right. The choices are (1) not giving answers that we don't
have, (2) doing nothing. You describe some of the ways in which
privileged people can "come into the picture" and join
constructively in popular struggles for social justice and
liberation. There are many such possibilities.
It's also true that when I was in Pakistan I spoke only to a narrow elite. That's a shame, and I regret it, very much. In India that was partially true, though less so; and in Kerala, much less so. Similar problems and choices arise right where I live. We can work where we are, not where we are not. There's no general single answer as to where and how it is right and proper to focus our energies and efforts, no single answer that applies to everyone. We have to find our own ways.
MR: Any message, reflection or
thoughts for our readers?
Chomsky: A philosopher
friend once wrote a criticism of my work in which he said, with some
annoyance, that the only "ism" I seem to believe in is
truism. That's rather accurate. I don't feel that I have important
messages to convey, beyond the obvious: in this case, think for
yourselves and do not uncritically accept what you are told, and do
what you can to make the world a better place, particularly for those
who suffer and are oppressed.
Mashhood Rizvi is the
Editor-in-Chief of EDucate!. He can be reached at
mashhood@cyber.net.pk
In : Mashhood Rizvi
Notes